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  BWL - Will we ever see a raid like it again? |
09/16/09 11:06:01 AM
Patch 3.2.0a
Stabbymcbeal |
With the advent of the hardmode
system, I have seen the path to progression now goes through
Achievements but I was wondering if we will ever see a raid again
that requires:
A. Attunement - Instead of marching through the front door and
killing stuff, we have a series of quests to complete in a
compelling storyline.
B. Crowd Control - Real CC, like the raid wipes if you break the
sheep, etc. Think TK trash before Kael, most of SSC trash, BWL too
for that matter.
C. More Linear Raids - Like MC, AQ40, BWL, where you feel like you
are travelling through the instance and the end of it feels far
away.
D. Separation of Gear - Raid gear vs Heroic gear. In Vanilla, there
was no comparison. Now, this idea is nothing new and there is
always the argument of elitism vs casual but the truth is that the
reason a lot of people ran BWL back in the day was for the gear,
not for the epeenery.
E. End Boss who takes several weeks to kill - Rather than the
"world firsts" (and yes I quoted those words) of today, harken back
to the days when the end boss was a real bad ass and it tooks weeks
not hours to kill him.
The real question is: Is this type of raid extinct or can we be
surprised with maybe one or two raids that really feel like the old
days of raiding where there was a sense of accomplishment and
challenge?
To those "hard mode" advocates: I have no problem with hard modes,
I am just asking if we can see a dungeon that doesn't contain
gimmicky hard modes.
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09/17/09 09:35:22 AM
Patch 3.2.0a
Bornakk |
Q u o t e:
With the advent of the hardmode system, I have seen the path to
progression now goes through Achievements but I was wondering if we
will ever see a raid again that requires:
A. Attunement - Instead of marching through the front door and
killing stuff, we have a series of quests to complete in a
compelling storyline.
B. Crowd Control - Real CC, like the raid wipes if you break the
sheep, etc. Think TK trash before Kael, most of SSC trash, BWL too
for that matter.
C. More Linear Raids - Like MC, AQ40, BWL, where you feel like you
are travelling through the instance and the end of it feels far
away.
D. Separation of Gear - Raid gear vs Heroic gear. In Vanilla, there
was no comparison. Now, this idea is nothing new and there is
always the argument of elitism vs casual but the truth is that the
reason a lot of people ran BWL back in the day was for the gear,
not for the epeenery.
E. End Boss who takes several weeks to kill - Rather than the
"world firsts" (and yes I quoted those words) of today, harken back
to the days when the end boss was a real bad ass and it tooks weeks
not hours to kill him.
The real question is: Is this type of raid extinct or can we be
surprised with maybe one or two raids that really feel like the old
days of raiding where there was a sense of accomplishment and
challenge?
To those "hard mode" advocates: I have no problem with hard modes,
I am just asking if we can see a dungeon that doesn't contain
gimmicky hard modes.
Based on the points you provided, probably not.
A. Attunements tended to cause more frustration than benefit so we
have aimed to put the story parts into optional quests and allow
players to have easier access to the dungeons. I don't remember
when heading to Onyxia anybody being excited to help someone do the
attunement again.
B. Crowd control could be around, but it also is linked with trash
that people tend to complain about when there is a decent amount of
it. Several packs in Ulduar have CC-able mobs, do you want to
triple the number of trash packs and their difficulty to make the
CC more valued?
C. I'm not sure I understand this one. There were a number of
complaints over the boring linear part of the old dungeons, but we
do want the dungeons to feel epic and I think a place like Ulduar
accomplished that -- getting to Yogg doesn't feel like a short
hop.
D. The gear tends to look similar as there is more of it and more
people running raids now that they are more accessible. A lot of
players only do things when there is a reward so it seems like a
lot of people go where the gear goes.
E. I don't want to blabber on here, but bugs often had to do with
the long kill times back then which we have avoided through better
testing methods. Yogg-0 is still no easy feat though and that took
quite awhile for even the top guilds in the world to pull
off.
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09/17/09 11:37:38 AM
Patch 3.2.0a
Bornakk |
Q u o t e:
A. Attunements have an impact on server stability as well. Luckily
as in your example, the onyxia attunement is just as required as is
grinding sons of hodir rep, which frankly is a larger time sink.
Helm and leg enchants took all of 30 minuets in vanilla as well.
Was onyxia THAT bad? Really, it's a single boss instance which
required minimal effort if you just pugged a group together.
B. He could of easily been referring to raid CC, such as Naxx40
gothik or grand widow (all be it more of a snare).
C. I think he means a raid where you see a storyline progression as
the instance goes along as you make your way through the nasty
brain childs of Blizzards finest. Not: "Oh look an instance with
wings, lets try the blue one first" ... Blackwing for example you
moved through nefarions lair, and with the red shard quest were
even on a time frame.
D. Ten achievement points don't cut it, sorry. From those I've
talked to and massive threads on these forums, many hardcores and
even average raiders such as myself are ok with puggable
raids and gear spread around, but when the model is just some
recolored repeat why bother? Not to be a broken record but the old
tier at least had a look to it, which is the achievement. Not 10
Useless points.
E. Artificially difficult fights based on time restrictions like
Algalon, or farming other hardmodes which give actual gear was a
deterrent for lots looking at one light. Does a title help my guild
progress more than a hardmode item off say freya 3?
Personally, I think the end bosses will never be so epic again due
to the increase of skill. Blackwing days people were just starting
to catch on to theorycrafting and now the big power guilds who take
raiding seriously will speed through it, no question.
A. I'm not sure when you started doing Onyxia but she was very
difficult for quite awhile and it was never really fun to deal with
the fairly consistent stream of people needing help with the
attunement that they couldn't solo.
B. The examples given were for trash mobs so that's what I went on.
Trash in encounters is a possibility, but the 10-player dungeons
make that a little more difficult as it's hard to assume certain
classes are available.
C. I don't see a storyline progression in your example. I could
probably argue that there is more storyline progression in the
Coliseum than BWL.
D. Just to focus on what the original post was, as much as we want
there to be new models and such, we don't want there to be a huge
gear gap that significantly prevents players from experiencing new
content.
E. So instead of going straight to the thing that was most
important you had to build up to it instead. I'm not saying this
was perfect, but it also wasn't for everybody but it was a big
challenge that was pretty much for only the high end players for a
long time.
I do agree with your overall assessment though. Many players
understand how the game works way better than before and are used
to defeating encounters and not getting that feeling like they did
when it happened for the first time - but that doesn't mean they
aren't enjoying it still and enjoying the new challenges.
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