10/28/09 10:45:42 AM
Patch 3.2.2a
Vallya |
Can we please talk about the new Need
before Greed rules in 5man pugs re: armor types not being Needable
if they are outside your class?
This means Shaman, good luck needing that leather piece that
dropped, even if you are the only caster.
"But Vallya, surely you can just tell them all to pass so you can
Greed"
You're assuming the intelligence of your average cross-server pug
DPS is high enough to support doing anything but clicking /de every
time something drops that isn't leather.
"Butbutbut classes should have dibs if its their armor type!"
Fine with me. If we have an ele shaman and a holy pally in a group
and the shaman needs the mail, give it to him if thats your desire.
Just don't remove my ability to hit Need as well if its an upgrade
to supersede the Greed of others that just want to sell it.
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10/28/09 12:18:29 PM
Patch 3.2.2a
Ghostcrawler
<Lead Systems Designer> |
We knew this change was going to be
controversial, and we totally understand that e.g. cloth can be an
upgrade for a Balance druid or leather can be an upgrade for a
shaman.
Looting to some extent is always going to have a heavily social
component. There's only so much we can do (or should do) to try and
"solve" that problem for players. On the other hand, the new LFG
system also removes some of the social checks and balances (not
that those are huge to begin with) by potentially grouping you with
folks you may never see again. On my server, perennial ninjas and
jerks earn a reputation. That's going to be harder when you're
talking about a battle group. Overall we expect players to just pug
a lot more often, because the new system really is that good. So
overall the drama over who gets the healing shoulders might arise
more often. :(
Ultimately, our logic went like this: If a Holy paladin loses a
great non-plate upgrade to another player, one out of five players
might feel bad. If a Holy paladin rolls Need on every type of armor
that drops, then four out of five players might have a bad
experience. The jerk potential seemed worse than the
lost-an-upgrade potential as far as whether or not players buy into
using the new dungeon tool.
You can still Greed a potential upgrade item. You can still talk to
your group and explain that X is an awesome item for you and would
they mind passing on it or even trading it? (You can trade BoP
items for a short period of time following the same rules that
apply today.)
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10/28/09 05:06:54 PM
Patch 3.2.2a
Ghostcrawler
<Lead Systems Designer> |
Q u o t e:
Is there any chance Greed could be given a priority over
DE?
I think that works if you run with a group who all agree on what
all the rules mean. In a true pug situation I think nothing would
get disenchanted because people wold roll Greed for fear that they
would be the only one not to Greed.
But I would definitely encourage you to still try and work out your
policy even in a pug. There is a ton of baggage that has been built
up about loot etiquette over the years. One of the things that has
amazed me working on the dungeon feature is how differently various
realms (or even parts or the world) handle loot. And of course many
people are amazed to find not everyone does things their way / the
right way. :)
Like any big new feature I'm sure we will need to tweak things over
time once we see how people really use it. Often it's the
unexpected reaction that turns out to be the biggest issue.
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10/28/09 05:10:32 PM
Patch 3.2.2a
Ghostcrawler
<Lead Systems Designer> |
Q u o t e:
When the armor class doesn't match your class, just change the Need
button into a Need* button, that gets lower priority than the
former. How hard is development these days?
Development is easy. Explaining complex rules to a broad audience
is hard. I've played a lot of games that were clearly supposed to
be aimed at hardcore gamers who don't mind complexity. WoW isn't
one of those games.
Many forum posters dramatically, dramatically underestimate
how sophisticated they are in their WoW comprehension compared to
the average player.
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10/28/09 05:14:13 PM
Patch 3.2.2a
Ghostcrawler
<Lead Systems Designer> |
Q u o t e:
When will you all understand? This change only effects CROSS SERVER
PUGs
Yes. I'm not sure if everyone realizes that. Need Before Greed is
forced when you add random players to a 5-player group. You can use
whatever loot system you choose when you use /invite to form the
group.
To try and improve the pug experience (at least pugs formed through
the tool) we wanted to try and minimize jerkish behavior, and that
includes not giving the leader a whole lot of power. I'm not
talking about a player who thinks it's funny to pull the entire
instance and wipe you. I'm talking about players who legitimately
want to run the dungeon but have very non-conventional ideas about
leadership or loot distribution. We are trying to impose a little
bit of convention on these groups so that everyone has a better pug
experience.
Q u o t e:
From what I can tell, how "Need before Greed" works is being
changed everywhere.
Need before Greed is changed everywhere. From our research, very
few groups use this loot system. (I'm sure some do, and you don't
need to post to tell us that it's your favorite loot system.) Most
groups use some variant of Group Loot (the current default) or
Master Looter. If you use Group Loot, you can still Need on
anything you want. You just can't use Group Loot on a pug formed
with the Dungeon tool.
[ Post edited by
Ghostcrawler ]
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10/28/09 05:43:38 PM
Patch 3.2.2a
Ghostcrawler
<Lead Systems Designer> |
Q u o t e:
Well, this may seem like basics to a lot of people, but I think
part of the confusion/concerns is that the default "Group Loot"
includes aspects of "Need before Greed" rolling on higher level
items. I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who don't know
that they are two different loot systems, and assume that the
default loot system is "Need before Greed" since the
Need/Greed/Pass option is what pops up whenever you stumble across
a higher level item.
I agree. A lot of people think they use Need before Greed but are
really just needing or greeding through Group Loot. It is perhaps
an overly jargon-laden system with subtle differences.
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