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  Dead tree = as intended? |
09/16/09 06:26:08 AM
Patch 3.2.0a
Greybird |
I've read dozens of threads full of
excellent player suggestions regarding how to keep Subtlety tree
alive, but I haven't even seen any developers comment on the state
of Sub with the exception of this in the Q&A:
"The damage is behind the other specs in PvE, and due to all the
neat utility tools, Subtlety would immediately become the default
spec in PvE if the damage were comparable. In the future we'd
like to make it competitive, but it's an interesting
balancing act between too good and not good enough. It has a place
in PvP, and should be more compelling in the post-3.2 world where
survival talents will be more valuable."
This statement, to me, really shows a lack of understanding of the
class and the tree.
Currently we have HAT specs that, given the right raid composition,
can do close to the same DPS as combat or assassination specs. It
was far from "too good" when you've got rogues pulling ~12k in
combat. This is being stopped in 3.2.2 because it's gimmicky, and
gimmicks get nerfed.
Sadly, that gimmick was the last thread of hope that Sub tree had
going for it. Post 3.2.2 anyone raiding with Subtlety should be
relegated to the "not good enough" category.
I don't really know what to say in this thread. I could rant on
about how easy it would be to fix Sub tree using recommendations
posted in the past by myself and other dedicated Rogues, but it all
seems to fall on deaf ears anyway. Sub tree has the greatest
potential for fun (remember fun?) of any talent tree in any class I
know of. As of now that is being squandered.
I just really want to know if the developers are happy with the
state of the Subtlety tree, or if it's just getting perpetually
out-prioritized, or what...
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09/17/09 09:37:58 AM
Patch 3.2.0a
Ghostcrawler
<Lead Systems Designer> |
Q u o t e:
This statement, to me, really shows a lack of understanding of the
class and the tree.
Whenever we see comments like this, we immediately assume that you
have a different vision for class / spec / whatever than we do. If
that is the case, you are likely to find yourself frustrated and
scratching your head a lot when our changes never make the design
converge on what you think it should be.
Now, we do want Subtlety to be more attractive. All of the pure dps
classes have a spec that isn't as popular as the others. Mages may
be the closest because at least Frost has a viable PvP use, but
there are also plenty of mages who want to be able to use Frost in
end-game PvE too.
Subtlety (and Frost for that matter) are specs focused around
utility. The problem is that players understandably nearly always
choose damage over utility for raiding and often choose utility
over damage for PvP, unless the damage is really high or the
utility just doesn't cut it for some reason.
What we are talking about doing is sharing more of the utility
among other specs, or the core class, so that there aren't "utility
trees." To do that though, we have to make the way the different
specs do damage different enough so that players might choose a
play-style preference over highest damage. This is particularly
challenging for rogues, who have a history of giving up a preferred
spec or play style for one with a sub 1% dps increase.
I think we are closest with the Arcane vs. Fire mage specs at the
moment. They play a little differently, which goes beyond just the
type of magic damage they do. While Fire might still do the highest
damage overall, Arcane is close enough and plays different enough
that even competitive players don't feel stupid for playing that
spec. There are a lot more Arcane mages out there than I think a
lot of players assume.
That is harder with rogues. "I'm the sneaky one" doesn't translate
into sustained raid dps. Assassination feels like it emphasizes
poisons more and Combat feels like it emphasizes weapons more, so
we're a little closer there. Subtelty needs a stronger yet
damage-oriented niche.
HaT, sadly, is not a niche. HaT has scaling problems. It's
appropriate for a 5-player group, but gets too in larger groups
with all of their raid buffs. We don't want HaT to be the one
talent that pushes players into Subtlety.
[ Post edited by
Ghostcrawler ]
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09/17/09 01:17:43 PM
Patch 3.2.0a
Ghostcrawler
<Lead Systems Designer> |
Q u o t e:
I'm pretty sure that's not what he (and Blizzard in general) means
by utility. I think he includes that stuff, plus virtually anything
that isn't DPS: personal survivabiilty, control over targets (not
limited to raid boss targets), etc. Things like reduced energy/mana
costs, reduced threat and indirect buffs to personal DPS (e.g.
pushback protection) are more of a gray area, but some or more of
that stuff may be included as well.
The issue is that most of this stuff doesn't fit into the bucket of
useful utility when in a raid context. Players define utility as
contribution to raid performance. Blizzard traditionally has not
used such a limited definition. So he's talking about addressing
the very problem you raise, by spreading around or baselining the
various "flavor" utilities that aren't really valued in raiding but
are maybe quite valuable in other contexts. This could go a long
way both to making trees like Frost and Subtlety able to do
competitive damage, and to making currently-weak PvP trees
stronger.
Yeah. This.
Let's consider two talents. First, Ice Barrier. Great spell and
pretty fun. Would you give up raid dps to have this talent? It
depends. If the fight is so deadly that you're going to die without
it, well alive mages can out dps the dead ones. But how often will
that situation arise? Would you get this talent for pvp? Yes.
Second, Camouflage. Great for leveling. Useful for 5-player runs if
you're sapping a lot. But is that talent a dps increase, even in
PvP? It's pretty hard to quantify, but I bet most ROUGES would say
no.
Okay, so then let's compensate those two trees for the fact that
they have "isn't a dps increase" talents. Now Frost and Subtlety
can do the damage of Fire and Combat, but also have better
survivability, crowd control or other utility. Why be Fire or
Combat again?
A better design is probably just that trees aren't designed around
"I trade dps for other stuff." That older design may have worked
when few players raided, but it's something important to a lot of
our players now. It's fine to have talents like this mixed in all
the trees, as long as they don't make up the tree.
Incidentally, the mastery pitch for Cataclym also helps with stuff
like that. Frost can get Ice Barrier and ROGES can get Camo while
still getting some dps boost for the investment.
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