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  Any news on moonkin 4pt8? |
05/21/09 11:48:48 AM
Patch 3.1.2
Liessmoor |
GC is there any new on the fix to moonkin 4pt8 that you may be
able to share.
Or at least let us know if it being looked into since we have
had no discussion on the bug?
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05/21/09 11:54:13 AM
Patch 3.1.2
Ghostcrawler
<Lead Systems Designer> |
The reason we increased the proc chance from 5% to 15% is
because of the issue where you can lose the proc on an existing
Starfire. For a number of technical reasons, we can't apply the
proc to a spell already being cast.
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05/21/09 01:59:26 PM
Patch 3.1.2
Ghostcrawler
<Lead Systems Designer> |
Q u o t e:
Taken from the wording on the actual gear.
4) Set: Each time your Insect Swarm deals damage, it has a
chance to make your next Starfire cast within 10 sec
instant.
Just to help you out GC, I know you have a lot of stuff on
your plate each day.
The problem is that you can't modify a spell's cast time while
the spell is already being cast. The tooltip is accurate... if
frustrating.
We just talked about it and we might have a solution. It might
not be hotfixable, but it shouldn't take until 3.2. We might
lower the proc rate if we got it to work however. I'll try and
update when we work it out.
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05/21/09 02:07:51 PM
Patch 3.1.2
Ghostcrawler
<Lead Systems Designer> |
Q u o t e:
We're not asking for the proc to finish the Starfire cast,
we're asking for it simply not remove the buff at the end of
it. We want the buff for the starfire after the cast
finishes.
But that isn't your next Starfire. That's the one after the
next one. The cast time is determined when the cast begins but
the spell itself exists when the casting ends.
Like I said, we might have a solution. The Nightfall one is a
little complicated, but that may be what we do.
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05/22/09 09:51:05 AM
Patch 3.1.2
Ghostcrawler
<Lead Systems Designer> |
Q u o t e:
So this "oops" wasn't know about before you implemented the
4pT8 or was this as it was designed? Either it's shotty
design or shotty implementation. Not trying to harp here but
as a Software Engineer I try to look at stuff like this as if
I was on the other side of the glass wall that is the forums
and understand where you are coming from. Most of the time I
agree with you ( the general Blizzard 'you' ) as most of the
QQ has little experience the complexities to massive scale
systems. But this one makes me do a severe double
take.
I’m trying to give you a peek at how things are set up
technically so you’ll understand the limitations.
Don’t turn that into “Wow, your programmers must be
noobs.” I can assure you they are the best in the
business, and I’ve been in the business long enough to be
able to say that. :)
Q u o t e:
Apparently the original design is not intended to work
like that, but instead make the starfire you are currently
casting instant. If I'm understanding GC correctly.
We knew if the proc-happened mid cast that you might lose the
proc. We tried to design the bonus so that wouldn’t
happen often. Unfortunately with the way all of the other
numbers work out, Moonkin are still chaining Starfire together
a lot. We increased the proc rate to compensate, but that may
not be enough, which is why we are looking into a technical
solution to make the bonus apply to the next Starfire you start
casting instead of the next Starfire that does damage. It might
take a few days, but it will be long before the next tier of
content is released.
Q u o t e:
With all due respect, can we ditch the semantics?
You and I can debate semantics. Computers are however largely
inflexible. You can’t tell them “Well, that’s
what I said but not what I meant.” We can rewrite the
combat code. Is that a wise expenditure of our time? Probably
not. We think we have a work around however that will produce
the intended result.
Q u o t e:
Everyone assumes if they lower the proc rate, it would
be to 5%, GC never mentioned what % they lower it to,
lowering it to 10% and fixing the buff to work like nightfall
would probably be worthwhile and not OP. Can anyone run the
numbers and see how that works out?
Lowering the proc rate would be fair, but we will probably keep
it at something like 7% so that fixing the problem
doesn’t feel like such a nerf.
Q u o t e:
Didn't all the RNG stuns get removed due to the unenjoyable
nature that random events that swung fights had on
pvp?
Players like to invoke this argument a lot, that RNG stuns were
bad for the game, therefore RNG must be bad for the game.
It’s an RPG. RNG is at the core of the combat mechanics.
It just can’t dominate the experience, which we
don’t feel like it does.
Q u o t e:
Its pretty crystal clear to everyone who follows the changes
in the moonkin spec over time that whoever designed balance
T8 is either slightly retarded or did it in about 5 minutes
without ever familiarizing himself with the spec
first.
You don’t get to talk like that on our forums. Sorry.
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05/22/09 09:51:12 AM
Patch 3.1.2
Ghostcrawler
<Lead Systems Designer> |
Q u o t e:
That is terrible coding, terrible game design, and your
defense of this is only worse. Your claims in this thread
have shown a lack of understanding in these specific game
mechanics, GC. I don't expect you to know everything, I
certainly don't, but I also don't post information on things
I don't know about. Your 'defense' about these alleged
technical issues and semantics is in direct contradiction to
how game coding has worked since, what, didn't Warlocks have
Nightfall at release? A lot of my faith in you has been
lost.
Murmurs, I generally respect your posts a lot, but that still
doesn’t give you free reign to break the forum
rules.
I know exactly how Nightfall works and how the new set bonus
works. They work differently. The reason they work differently
is that Nightfall is a talent so it is okay, in our minds, to
muck up the spell with a lot of special cases since those cases
will largely exist forever. Messing with Starfire to make the
tier set work better is unattractive because then the spell is
laden with this special-case stuff that will only be relevant
for a few months in 2009. Yet we will have to live with the
risk of that code breaking or falling out of date forever (or
at least as long as WoW endures, which I suspect will be longer
than 2009). :)
I make mistakes sometimes, and WoW is a very complex game, but
assertions that the players understand the mechanics better
than the developers are almost always going to be
incorrect.
Q u o t e:
I'm gonna go out on a limb here that the spell description
and the actual code used to implement the are not the same
and therefore not of much use when it comes to discussing the
technical implementations. If the guy says its more than a
copy-paste of Nightfall and said guy actually has access to
the source code, it seems reasonable to believe him. On the
other hand, your access to the inner workings of the spell is
limited to tooltips.
Let the devs do their job. They recognize the issue and they
are working on a solution that works within their framework.
Be it bad or lazy or whatever misguided insult you want to
throw their way, they need to live in the reality of their
codebase. They don't need us armchair quarterbacking their
programming. If you think you can do better, untold riches
await you when you release 1.0 of your MMORPG. =)
Yep.
My take home from this thread is not to respond next time. My
trying to share some information did nothing to improve the
conversation. We could have fixed the bonus and players would
have eventually noticed. When we spend time to moderate a
thread, that is less time we have to work on the game. If your
purpose here is to post garbage about how we don’t care
about your class, please please please just spare us.
[ Post edited by
Ghostcrawler ]
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05/23/09 12:57:38 PM
Patch 3.1.2
Ghostcrawler
<Lead Systems Designer> |
Q u o t e:
If you are getting unusually angry and disappointed responses
from people who are normally reasonable, productive posters,
and who you respect and who are normally respectful, perhaps
you should look back at your own posts with a more critical
eye, to see what provoked them?
"Blizzard made me post an angry message" is not an acceptable
excuse. If I can't engage in the name-calling than neither can
you.
Q u o t e:
It's understandable that you would not want a lot of
complicated coding to make a set bonus work. But you are the
one who designed the set bonus. If you want to replace it
with one that provides the same kind of DPS boost, but has a
much simpler mechanic, I don't think anyone will
mind.
That was certainly one possible soultion. I was not trying to
say "our hands are tied." I was just attempting to explain some
of the "Blizzard so dumb when they could easily fix this"
gibberish. Perhaps next time it will occur to some players that
there might be a good reason why we haven't made an "obvious"
fix.
Q u o t e:
There are lots of places that this thread went wrong. To
start on our side - had the posters here been mindful of our
words then perhaps we would not have come across as spiteful
as we were. Sometimes it's easy to forget that Blizzard wants
the same things we do - a game that is functional, balanced,
and most important fun.
For the development side, I think had full disclosure been
given from the start, the community reaction would not have
been so grave. Had your first post stated what was in your
last, then I doubt there would have been as much of an issue.
Yes some would have been upset, but it seems unlikely that it
would have been as strong as it was.
No harm done, amigo. I constantly learn on these forums that
quick answers are seldom sufficient.
I do continually try to stress that logical arguments will win
out over fiery emotions on these forums every time. As often
happens, people at Blizzard were reading the thread and so we
started discussing the issue until we came up with a solution.
The system worked in this case, but it would have worked
without responses like the following.
Q u o t e:
They never intended to fix the issue instead they want us to
stop playing moonkins. I really dont see why we are in the
game anymore.
We do not need silly stuff like this on the forums. Please do
not make us ban our way towards that goal.
Q u o t e:
Any updates would be greatly appreciated GC.
We have a fix for the current set bonus to make it work the way
you imagine it should at a 7 or 8% proc chance. It's our policy
not to announce patch dates ahead of time, but it will be long
before 3.2.
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05/23/09 01:48:12 PM
Patch 3.1.2
Ghostcrawler
<Lead Systems Designer> |
Q u o t e:
But to try and bully us is not very professional. And I dont
appreciate it at all. I dont intend to say things over the
top as you stated out of a partial sentence but I do intend
to get moonkins voice heard.
We listen to Murmurs and other Moonkins because with rare
exceptions they argue logically and back up their numbers. When
players are overly emotional they already start at a
disadvantage because we assume they probably aren't thinking
logically or objectively.
Q u o t e:
And today is my birthday so you can say happy birthday to me
if u wish I am probably twice your age now not cause you are
young but boy am I getting old.
Happy birthday. ;)
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05/24/09 12:37:12 PM
Patch 3.1.2
Ghostcrawler
<Lead Systems Designer> |
Q u o t e:
We jumped on him with good reason. We were lead to believe
that the buff from 5% to 15% was compensation for the fact
that a bug wasn't yet fixed, and then he tells us that the 5%
to 15% buff was the fix. Not only were they content to leave
a bug with a very half-assed fix, but they deceived us about
it. We had every right to be upset. And apparently, this
thread was the impetus for them to make another effort in
doing something about it.
Ah... no. Nobody was deceiving anyone. I have explained the way
it works the way it does technically -- you can label it what
you want. Most of all, I would definitely *not* attribute
getting upset here to getting anything accomplished. Your
getting upset, emotional, insulting or going over the top is
never justified and will never persuade us. This was not a "we
showed them" moment, and if such is your conclusion then I fear
you will continue to be frustrated when trying to get us to see
your way.
Blogs like Graylo's had a lot more influence than this thead
(even if I did piss him off). :)
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